Notes; Tillich vs. Freud
In this session:
Defining Religion
Different Angles
Rudolf Auto
Carl Marx
Why are people religious- how affects them.
Sigmeund Freud Paul Tillich
Freud dealt with human psyche and saw religion had big role in people's life.
The Future of An illusion- 1920s
Freud- main functions of religion?:
Give consolation - god who cares will make it better.
Gives requirements - like kids pple who want boundaries.
Gives rewards.
Gives guarantee you will be provided for.
Gives answers regarding origin: who created us, how were we created, why were we created. -existential questions.
But Freud thinks this is only necessary for unhealthy people.
Religion- childhood neurosis. - created when people can’t face reality turn to false reality: drugs, alcohol, sex addictions, false reality. Religion is an alternate reality to deal with harsh true reality of life.
G-d = imaginary parent.
Freud: “Mature adult can come to conclusions rationally- through science and can console themselves and offer emotional support independently = all religious people are neurotic.”
We don’t need religious stories bc primitive areas needed them to cover lack of knowledge, we have science now so discard religious stories.
Freud gives explanation for religious behaviour based on his theory.
Dynamics of faith - 1950s - Tillich ays about religion
Definition of religion - one's ultimate concern - a state of being grasped by an ultimate concern.
What does this mean?
Tillich background: Raised in Germany, saw rise of Nazi movement. Precursor to his ideas of religion.
Saw Jewish pple who lost jobs, home, freedom, family and lives - everything sacrificed bc loyalty to religious belief.
Saw Christians who believed that to be true to their faith they had t protect and support the Jews. Sacrificed jobs, family, home freedom, even lives (Christian resistant movement, - Deitrich Bonhoffer) to be true to their religious beliefs telling them they are responsibility to Jews.
Saw nazis sacrifice everything including integrity and values for the sake for the party.
Common: loyalty had pple be willing to make sacrifices for.
Worship- giving worth to something greater.
Concern- is not a worry, it is a goal, a pursuit, something pple care about.
Tillich= everyone is religious, has something important to them, something they will give life to.
Ultimate concern, highest loyalty=religion. Not everyone s aware or acknowledge their religion.
Religion acc. To Tillich: anything.
In what ways promises/demands in religion acc. To Tillich- anser. Every ultimate concern has obligations and rewards.
Judeo-christian promises: eternal life joy, peace, relationship with g-d.
Demands: 10 commandments, sacrifice, worship, faith.
Career can be “ultimate concern” - rewards: money, status, ect. To receive rewards pple give: time, effort, health, family.
Some religions are not healthy: drugs, alcohol but there are rewards: numb pain, social acceptance, escape - willing to meet demands of the religion of alcohol: money, integrity, ect.
What does Tillich mean by idolatrous faith? & what is existential disappointment and how is it idolatrous?
Meet demands but reward not guaranteed. ( will alcohol give you what you want- no- you will be existentially disappointed, in who you have become.)
Highest loyalty shapes person I have become - idolatrous concern, when it fails, causes disruption in personality, become someone you hate, you don't know what to do with….(became someone because of job, then job ends, now who am I?)
True faith leaves no room for doubt- Tillich disagrees- doubt plays a key role in faith. Like when in Bais Yaakov they say- that question is apikorsus, but actually having doubt is part of having faith, because faith is based on deductive knowledge, based on not complete knowledge. Base of knowledge: Jesus was a real man, movement resulted from his life. Faith: If you deduce from that that he is the messiah, son of g-d or all that. Faith, enter what you do not know based on what you do know.
Doubt element- part that you do not know. You have not seen.
Example: Marriage- foundation of knowledge- some things you know about them leads you to enter the unknown, a commitment.
Faith: Willing to step into unknown.
Religion: Human transformation in response to perceived ultimacy.
Human- religion is a human phenomenon. (Department of humanity and public affairs- religion dept.) Both individual and group. Rituals, stories told, ect. All human activities. Not theological and doctrines, but behaviour of humans.
Religious expression- gives value to humans and human existence. Each religion defines what it means to be human.
Transformation- change is necessary in life.
JCI - predicament, humans sinful. Hinduism- humans caught in unending cycle of rebirth. Religion offers opportunity to change to get freedom from predicament.
State of existence follows transformation.
Ultimacy- Focus in someone's life. Can be spiritual, can be physical.
Perceived- subjective to each person.
More of my thoughts:
Axiological - philosophical study of value - therefore Tillichs axiological view of religion is his understanding of the value of religion.
Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence, or reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations - therefore Tilichs understanding of religion is how religion informs the meaning of existence.
My suggestion is that the difference between Frued and Tillich is that Freud sees religion only in theological and doctrinal terms and in psychological terms of what people think, therefore, it is not valid, but Tillich sees religion in ontological terms and in axiological terms as how it describes human behaviour both individually and on a group level.
Russel re Manning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_HcFLa0b1Q
Pual Tillich- one of most influential theologians of 20th century- not most famous.
Theology must be in dialogue (engage) with contemporary moment.
Born -1886 (then prussia, now Poland, border country)
On the Boundary- topic of his autobiography
Tillich stands against conservative tendencies of being aloof and set apart.
Martin kaela - influenced Tillich, addressed question of historic Jesus. Kaela: this is irrelevant, the impact of the christ of faith on human behaviour is what is important.
Tillich read Cant- philosophy- many philosophers, and german idealist Shelling Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling somewhat forgotten figure- central influence to Tillich. Tried to synthesise dialectic between the ideal and the real, between thought and being, philosophy: forms ideas, but these ideas need to be brought into interaction with reality as it is encountered.
Philosophy of nature, art, and revelation- the unprethinkable. Real that can be incorporated into framework.
Tillich phd dissertation written on Shelling, and historic essay on Shelling, absorbing this central questin into his own thought.
Shelling concerned with the unconditioned. The unthingly. Unbedingked- german word.
Must come from beneath, beyond and above the conditioned, but at the same time encountered with the conditioned. Transcends the conditioned realities. Yet always through the conditioned realities. Tillich rejects supernaturalism, that someone can step out reality of nature, culture religion to come into contact with something that transcends that g-d, Tillich says that religion must walk within the bounds of the reality.
Tillich came into contact with working class pple in Berlin- had profound impact, had no previous awareness, influenced his own thinking: later described as religious socialism. By need to bring christian theology into dialogue with people who need it.
Marries greta veva- not very religious, within a few weeks signs to be army chaplain in first ww, leaves security of academic life. Transforms him. Started preaching consolation, war is justified in defense of fatherland and culture, ends up preaching only of death, breakdown of 19th century of Lutheran culture aligned with needs of german culture and faith- Tillich had several nervous breakdowns, lives through the death and breakdown of Europe culture and certainties.
Wife is pregnant with another mans son- his best friend, amicable divorce.
Notion of expressivism- all certainties shaken up and deep meanings allowed to come through.
Tillich meets Hannah- second wife. 1920 at fancy dress party. Had open marriage, remained together until end of life. Said she alone understood him.
Worked in Berlin Univeristy. Taught history of philosophy and theology- always in context of cultural situation.
Theology of Culture
The idea of the theology of culture. One must not accept any kind of separation between the religious life and the cultural life. He saw religion and culture not talking to each other after ww1.
Key concepts:
Understanding of religion; narrow notion, identifies religion with specific rituals,; vs. broader understanding, religion as directedness to the ultimate, the unconditioned, religion is our response to that which transcends the everyday, ultimate concern, not to be identified with human life, human spirit,
Kant (1724-104) equates religion with morality,
Schleiermacher (176-1834) identifies religion with feeling
Karl Barth (1886-1968)religion as the word of g-d to do with revelation
http://www.stjohnstimeline.co.uk/
Defining Religion
Different Angles
Rudolf Auto
Carl Marx
Why are people religious- how affects them.
Sigmeund Freud Paul Tillich
Freud dealt with human psyche and saw religion had big role in people's life.
The Future of An illusion- 1920s
Freud- main functions of religion?:
Give consolation - god who cares will make it better.
Gives requirements - like kids pple who want boundaries.
Gives rewards.
Gives guarantee you will be provided for.
Gives answers regarding origin: who created us, how were we created, why were we created. -existential questions.
But Freud thinks this is only necessary for unhealthy people.
Religion- childhood neurosis. - created when people can’t face reality turn to false reality: drugs, alcohol, sex addictions, false reality. Religion is an alternate reality to deal with harsh true reality of life.
G-d = imaginary parent.
Freud: “Mature adult can come to conclusions rationally- through science and can console themselves and offer emotional support independently = all religious people are neurotic.”
We don’t need religious stories bc primitive areas needed them to cover lack of knowledge, we have science now so discard religious stories.
Freud gives explanation for religious behaviour based on his theory.
Dynamics of faith - 1950s - Tillich ays about religion
Definition of religion - one's ultimate concern - a state of being grasped by an ultimate concern.
What does this mean?
Tillich background: Raised in Germany, saw rise of Nazi movement. Precursor to his ideas of religion.
Saw Jewish pple who lost jobs, home, freedom, family and lives - everything sacrificed bc loyalty to religious belief.
Saw Christians who believed that to be true to their faith they had t protect and support the Jews. Sacrificed jobs, family, home freedom, even lives (Christian resistant movement, - Deitrich Bonhoffer) to be true to their religious beliefs telling them they are responsibility to Jews.
Saw nazis sacrifice everything including integrity and values for the sake for the party.
Common: loyalty had pple be willing to make sacrifices for.
Worship- giving worth to something greater.
Concern- is not a worry, it is a goal, a pursuit, something pple care about.
Tillich= everyone is religious, has something important to them, something they will give life to.
Ultimate concern, highest loyalty=religion. Not everyone s aware or acknowledge their religion.
Religion acc. To Tillich: anything.
In what ways promises/demands in religion acc. To Tillich- anser. Every ultimate concern has obligations and rewards.
Judeo-christian promises: eternal life joy, peace, relationship with g-d.
Demands: 10 commandments, sacrifice, worship, faith.
Career can be “ultimate concern” - rewards: money, status, ect. To receive rewards pple give: time, effort, health, family.
Some religions are not healthy: drugs, alcohol but there are rewards: numb pain, social acceptance, escape - willing to meet demands of the religion of alcohol: money, integrity, ect.
What does Tillich mean by idolatrous faith? & what is existential disappointment and how is it idolatrous?
Meet demands but reward not guaranteed. ( will alcohol give you what you want- no- you will be existentially disappointed, in who you have become.)
Highest loyalty shapes person I have become - idolatrous concern, when it fails, causes disruption in personality, become someone you hate, you don't know what to do with….(became someone because of job, then job ends, now who am I?)
True faith leaves no room for doubt- Tillich disagrees- doubt plays a key role in faith. Like when in Bais Yaakov they say- that question is apikorsus, but actually having doubt is part of having faith, because faith is based on deductive knowledge, based on not complete knowledge. Base of knowledge: Jesus was a real man, movement resulted from his life. Faith: If you deduce from that that he is the messiah, son of g-d or all that. Faith, enter what you do not know based on what you do know.
Doubt element- part that you do not know. You have not seen.
Example: Marriage- foundation of knowledge- some things you know about them leads you to enter the unknown, a commitment.
Faith: Willing to step into unknown.
Religion: Human transformation in response to perceived ultimacy.
Human- religion is a human phenomenon. (Department of humanity and public affairs- religion dept.) Both individual and group. Rituals, stories told, ect. All human activities. Not theological and doctrines, but behaviour of humans.
Religious expression- gives value to humans and human existence. Each religion defines what it means to be human.
Transformation- change is necessary in life.
JCI - predicament, humans sinful. Hinduism- humans caught in unending cycle of rebirth. Religion offers opportunity to change to get freedom from predicament.
State of existence follows transformation.
Ultimacy- Focus in someone's life. Can be spiritual, can be physical.
Perceived- subjective to each person.
More of my thoughts:
Axiological - philosophical study of value - therefore Tillichs axiological view of religion is his understanding of the value of religion.
Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence, or reality, as well as the basic categories of being and their relations - therefore Tilichs understanding of religion is how religion informs the meaning of existence.
My suggestion is that the difference between Frued and Tillich is that Freud sees religion only in theological and doctrinal terms and in psychological terms of what people think, therefore, it is not valid, but Tillich sees religion in ontological terms and in axiological terms as how it describes human behaviour both individually and on a group level.
Russel re Manning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_HcFLa0b1Q
Pual Tillich- one of most influential theologians of 20th century- not most famous.
Theology must be in dialogue (engage) with contemporary moment.
Born -1886 (then prussia, now Poland, border country)
On the Boundary- topic of his autobiography
Tillich stands against conservative tendencies of being aloof and set apart.
Martin kaela - influenced Tillich, addressed question of historic Jesus. Kaela: this is irrelevant, the impact of the christ of faith on human behaviour is what is important.
Tillich read Cant- philosophy- many philosophers, and german idealist Shelling Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph Schelling somewhat forgotten figure- central influence to Tillich. Tried to synthesise dialectic between the ideal and the real, between thought and being, philosophy: forms ideas, but these ideas need to be brought into interaction with reality as it is encountered.
Philosophy of nature, art, and revelation- the unprethinkable. Real that can be incorporated into framework.
Tillich phd dissertation written on Shelling, and historic essay on Shelling, absorbing this central questin into his own thought.
Shelling concerned with the unconditioned. The unthingly. Unbedingked- german word.
Must come from beneath, beyond and above the conditioned, but at the same time encountered with the conditioned. Transcends the conditioned realities. Yet always through the conditioned realities. Tillich rejects supernaturalism, that someone can step out reality of nature, culture religion to come into contact with something that transcends that g-d, Tillich says that religion must walk within the bounds of the reality.
Tillich came into contact with working class pple in Berlin- had profound impact, had no previous awareness, influenced his own thinking: later described as religious socialism. By need to bring christian theology into dialogue with people who need it.
Marries greta veva- not very religious, within a few weeks signs to be army chaplain in first ww, leaves security of academic life. Transforms him. Started preaching consolation, war is justified in defense of fatherland and culture, ends up preaching only of death, breakdown of 19th century of Lutheran culture aligned with needs of german culture and faith- Tillich had several nervous breakdowns, lives through the death and breakdown of Europe culture and certainties.
Wife is pregnant with another mans son- his best friend, amicable divorce.
Notion of expressivism- all certainties shaken up and deep meanings allowed to come through.
Tillich meets Hannah- second wife. 1920 at fancy dress party. Had open marriage, remained together until end of life. Said she alone understood him.
Worked in Berlin Univeristy. Taught history of philosophy and theology- always in context of cultural situation.
Theology of Culture
The idea of the theology of culture. One must not accept any kind of separation between the religious life and the cultural life. He saw religion and culture not talking to each other after ww1.
Key concepts:
Understanding of religion; narrow notion, identifies religion with specific rituals,; vs. broader understanding, religion as directedness to the ultimate, the unconditioned, religion is our response to that which transcends the everyday, ultimate concern, not to be identified with human life, human spirit,
Kant (1724-104) equates religion with morality,
Schleiermacher (176-1834) identifies religion with feeling
Karl Barth (1886-1968)religion as the word of g-d to do with revelation
http://www.stjohnstimeline.co.uk/
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